[EBB Sightings] Red Formed Fox Sparrow discussion

Some open discussion regarding Red form Fox Sparrow.
Includes orginal posting by Bob Battagin on 1/4/05.
The posting showing a time stamp of 1/17/05, 9:45 is in error, please
disregard.
Rich Cimino
Pleasanton

-----Original Message-----
From: Les Chibana [mailto:les at birdnutz.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 8:42 AM
To: Richard Cimino
Subject: Re: Rich Cimino



> Fox Sparrows are somewhat complicated. Rising has gone ahead and split
> them into four groups, but there are problems preventing the AOU from 
> proceeding, according to Jon Dunn. Rising has 3 subspecies for Red Fox

> Sparrow: iliaca, the nominate for the eastern form; zaboria for the 
> western form (breeds in AK); and he puts altivagans with this group, 
> too (this is the problematic form). He comments that iliaca and 
> zaboria cannot be separated in the field. So, I guess he would say 
> that we don't know which ones, or if both, are seen in the Bay Area. I

> don't know if this has been, or even can be, determined by banding 
> evidence, yet. I haven't checked Pyle's guide (the bander's bible) to 
> see if this is a "slam dunk" or a "more data needed" scenario.
> The other "species" are Sooty, Slate-colored, and Thick-billed. The
> problem with placing altivagans in Red or Slate-colored is such that 
> it screws up a lot of reasoning about why the splits are being 
> proposed where they are. So, as I understand it, it's wiser to not 
> split the species until evidence can be found that resolves these 
> problems. This sounds vague, I know, because my understanding of the 
> issue is vague.
> I've seen Red (assumed zaboria), Sooty and Slate-colored in three
> trips to AK. Their songs seem significantly different, too.
> At a booksigning, I asked David Sibley why he didn't use the 
> subspecific names. He felt that it opened too many cans of worms and 
> he wanted to keep his guide accessible and more appealing to beginning

> birders. So, he uses a term like "taiga" to refer to breeding habitat,

> instead.


On Jan 17, 2005, at 7:44 AM, Richard Cimino wrote:

> Very interesting Les good feed back I appricate the time you took.
> Would you agree if I post this digalogue for other birders to read & 
> comment ? I will let you know if I can make the Mare Is..
> Rich Cimino
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> > .......
>> Yes some what confusing the Red Fox Sparrow. I was studying my bird 
>> guides last night. I see that "The Sparrows of the United States and 
>> Canada" by James Rising indicates the sub species as "iliaca".
>> The Sibley guide has it as a "taiga", which in the guide is the Nome
>> species I have seen.
>> Yet the "Rising Sparrow US Guide" drawing is Very similar to the
>> Richmond bird.
>> After study today in other guides these to I.D.'S are very different.
>> What do you think?
>> What is your opinion. This 2004 summer did you see this Red Sparrow
>> while in Alaska?
>>
> ......................................................................
> .
>> .
>> ...........
>> Dave Bowden - Aquila2 what have you seen in Alaska during your
>> working the Tundra job?
>>
> 
>> On Jan 15, 2005, at 5:59 PM, Richard Cimino wrote:
>>
>>> This morning at 9:30 AM I re-located the Red Form Fox Sparrow on the
>>> south side of Meeker Tidal trail in Richmond. The "iliaca"  is a 
>>> handsome large sparrow. I first found the bird in a bare tree behind

>>> a
>>
>>> public blue trash can. It later dropped to the shrub area and
>>> socialized with the Golden Crowns. I had plenty of viewing time 
>>> close
>>> up too. This is a state first for me. I have seen the bird in the
>>> spring in
>> and
>>> around Nome, Alaska.
>>> It is actually a rusty color more so than red in the spring. The
>>> spring rust color against the snow banks along the Kougarok Rd 
>>> outside of Nome makes this sparrow the showiest bird in that area. 
>>> The Meeker Tidal Creek  is rich in Golden Crowns, Sooty Fox 
>>> Sparrows,
>>> Cal. Towhees, Hermit Thrushes, Yellow Rumps, Ruby Crown Kinglets,
>>> Shrikes, several  duck sp and herons, plenty of volume along the
>> trail.
>>> The Tidal Creek is an interesting area less than a half mile from HY
>>> 580 off of Marine Bay. The Creek is managed by Cal Berkeley.
>>> The creek it is posted for a fetal cat trapping effort beginning
Jan.
>>> 17th for Clipper rail protection.
>>> As I walked the trail I counted 10 cats and small homes and feeding
>>> bowls along the trail.
>>> I followed the trail to the bay and a Clapper Rail seen upstream.
>>> Rich Cimino
>>> Pleasanton
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: sightings-admin at diabloaudubon.com
>>> [mailto:sightings-admin at diabloaudubon.com] On Behalf Of Bob Battagin
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 4:12 PM
>>> To: Sightings at diabloaudubon.com
>>> Subject: [EBB Sightings] Red (form) Fox Sparrow
>>>
>>>
>>> EBBers,
>>>
>>> This morning along the paved trail
>>> on the south side of Meeker Tidal
>>> Creek in Richmond there was a RED
>>> (form) FOX SPARROW feeding with
>>> crowned sparrows and our usual
>>> brown (aka sooty) form Fox Sparrows
>>> in the trail side shrubs across
>>> from carport # 176.  The breast and
>>> flank streaking on this bird were
>>> more a dark brown, not the red
>>> color of the tail, rump, and
>>> upperparts.  The strong rufous on
>>> gray facial pattern, white throat,
>>> and faint wing bars were apparent.
>>> At low tide a CLAPPER RAIL was
>>> about 100 yards upstream from where
>>> Meeker Tidal Creek passes under the
>>> Bay Shoreline Trail bridge.
>>>
>>> Good birding,
>>>
>>> Bob Battagin
>>> Oakland, CA
>>>
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>>